Dustin Howes | Building Sustainable Affiliate Income | Road to Revenue Podcast Episode 23

In this episode Lee and Dustin Howes discuss the critical role of landing pages in affiliate marketing, emphasizing the need for personalized and engaging content to improve conversion rates.

They talk about the importance of building trust between influencers and their audiences, integrating of AI into affiliate strategies, and the potential of niche markets.

Dustin and Lee talk about sustainable practices for affiliate marketers, the future of attribution models, and the significance of mentorship and reliable information in the industry.
Dustin shares practical advice for brands and individuals looking to succeed in affiliate marketing, highlighting the importance of creativity and authenticity.

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Transcript

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Somebody started sending out this Kool-Aid that said, you have to take on sponsorships once you get to a certain level. the real winners in the influencer space are the ones that recognize they're being undervalued when they take on sponsorships for brands that they really, really like. you In this episode, I'm joined by Dustin Howes, a true expert in affiliate marketing. He is on a mission to bridge the gap between influencers and sustainable long-term revenue. Now, we talk about some of the mistakes that creators and influencers make, how they're leaving money on the table, and what they can do about it. Let's dive in. Welcome, Justin. Thanks for joining us today. Really appreciate you jumping onto Road to Revenue to share a little bit about the, well, hopefully some tips and tricks and the, I'm sure many things that you've learned over the years. Welcome. Thank you for having me, it's pleasure to be here. Let's nerd out. I'm sitting here and I've called you a guest, but it's two hosts really. So it feels like a double win for everyone who's joining us. I do want to ask a little bit around how you got started, right? And there's got to be something that happened that brought you in. Why affiliate marketing? Great question. Just like everybody, I went to school for affiliate marketing in college. Just kidding. Let's go all the way back. High school, Marine Corps, college and professional poker player. And then all of those skill sets set me up for my first job in affiliate marketing to get a job in compliance over at CJ, which is... still a network, one of the biggest networks in the world. So I was taking money away from bad guys in the compliance department and I saw how much money was being spread around from companies and publishers and how much they were making and I fell in love. So then over the next 15 years I've worked for brands, worked for publications, worked for... my own self, building my own agency, building others' agencies. And today I'm working for a network called Inflection and we are changing the game of how influencers are interacting with the top of funnel and trying to make them better affiliates in this space and really capture the attention of brands that are looking to combine the world of influencer and affiliate marketing. that is really super interesting because before we started for a press record here, we were talking a little bit about some of the conferences and, how even with monetization tracks that you get at conferences, affiliate marketing isn't necessarily one of the first topics that people talk to and some talk about sometimes it's not even discussed at all. Influencers in particular, I know I've spoken to a lot who don't seem to have a an interest or it just doesn't have the appeal. What do you think's behind that? It is an education factor. at some point, years and years ago, influencer marketing, Instagrammers, YouTubers, they started getting a lot of steam and people started throwing money at them. And then somebody started sending out this Kool-Aid that said, you have to take on sponsorships once you get to a certain level. And the influencers that listen to that are those that create media kits and demand and hire agencies to go out on their behalf and like set this revenue stream up. But the real winners in the influencer space are the ones that recognize that their value is, they're being undervalued when they take on sponsorships like that for brands that they really, really like. So it is an education factor of. the affiliate marketing world trying to educate influencers that they have so much more earning potential over a long period of time than just taking these short, quick money grabs with sponsorships for brands that they don't even care about. education is part of what I do and what I'm out there trying to help people with and finding the right match for content and audience with a brand is is kind of my specialty right now. And that's like so key for from a conversion standpoint, isn't it? 100 % like if your influencer is coming on board and talking about a product or a certain topic, it's got to be a right match for the brand that you're working with to try to bring that influencer in because if you try to jam square peg into a round hole, things are not going to work ROI positive for you. So Finding what that audience ICP is and if it matches the brand that you're going out and hustling and trying to get influencer for, then you're going to try your best to talk them into affiliate marketing before going down that sponsorship route. But, you know, there are a lot of opportunities where I go with hybrid models where I give sponsorship upfront, but I want them to be invested in the game and have skin in it. so that they can be affiliates for the long term. And that's really interesting model. Is that terribly common? Hybrid models are maybe the most common at this point. I don't do any straight sponsorship deals. I can't find a ton of value in doing straight sponsorships because the motivation of the influencer is never there. They're not going to give it their all. And if you make them a salesman to where they're getting paid on conversions, then all of a sudden their tone is a little bit different and the way they email and care about the copy of the outreach to their audience, it matters dramatically. So it's something that I have to bake into every deal that I'm making out there. And beyond the education piece and becoming aware of not just the opportunity that exists, aware of how to bring that into their their existing workflow. What else do people who have not worked with affiliate marketing previously, what are some of the other hurdles that they have to overcome? Well, maybe the simplest thing is what are you doing with your social media bio? Like one of the biggest mistakes I see influencers that have a hundred thousand followers on, they don't have any kind of call to action on their link bio. And this is the missed, the biggest missed opportunity that I see in social media. And the reason being is nobody's taught them to like, build yourself a link tree or a beacon or make an account, spend $10 a month to create something that shows all of your recommendations for products that you believe in and that you love. And get started in affiliate marketing that way. You don't need sponsorships for that to get started with that. And then your sponsors will obviously wanna be on that, but you have to get started with that first. So doing sponsorships and putting hashtags to the companies, that's all well and good. but those are really hard for brands to actually quantify in terms of results. But if you have an affiliate link, it is tracking through something that is tested and proven for each of those brands and they're gonna find the gold and recognize what campaigns are working, what influencers are working well with them. And if all things go well, they're gonna come back to that influencer because they know that that audience is working well. And then on the other hand of that, like the influencer, now that they have evidence that they're working with this brand and doing really good work for them and driving sales and driving traffic. now they have a case study that they can show other brands of like how they worked with this and put those other brands that are coming to them at ease that. they are capable of this kind of traction. It definitely builds up the credibility, doesn't it? becomes that proof of projected ROI for not just the existing sponsors, but I'd imagine for negotiating deals with other sponsors. Yes, absolutely. And another huge missed opportunity is what you guys do in building short links to websites. Affiliate links in this industry are pretty gross. They are redirects with really long UTM parameters that do not fit in a social profile. But if you have a very quick short link from GeniusLink, is... it's so much easier for them to pop that in and prettier and it just makes for conversions to be much better and you look better as an influencer. So I can't emphasize enough how important the organizational piece of having short links and the conversion rate increasing dramatically is for those influencers that are out there watching or listening right now, like this is a super important aspect that a lot of them are missing. Yeah, I mean, I do look at some of the long affiliate links with all the different parameters in UTM. And actually, that does probably raise suspicion. yeah, they're short of the link. And obviously, we're always going to say you should be using a GeniusLink. But certainly from the customer standpoint, I think the more simple, the better it is. Simplicity, indeed. So in measurement, though, measurement and management, I because like we talked about being the world's most intelligent link management platform. And that's really core to managing affiliate marketing, isn't it just making sure that you have all your your digital ducks in the road, so to speak. Yeah, and one place that affiliate marketing really hasn't hit the mark yet is landing pages. Landing pages is something that we're behind on in the industry, and that's exactly why I signed on with Inflection. They're building super cool technology to help increase the conversion rates for the influencers out there that are driving that traffic. it is traditionally people Create an affiliate program and put the homepage up. And if they're a little bit advanced, they'll put landing pages that are deep links. Or maybe if they're really advanced, they'll go directly to products. But what Inflection is doing is taking the influencer and giving them the power to build a landing page that has their name, their, you know, welcome fans of this person. Here's a quote from them, here's their face, here's the products that they love, here's some of their accolades of why they're famous and why this product is working for them. All these things combined is gonna shoot up the conversion rates of the traffic that they're driving incredibly high in comparison to just sending them to a generic landing page. in a lot of ways. A lot of creators we follow online and influencers, it's it's a fairly intimate relationship. You know, we certainly as someone who follows an influencer or follows a creator, anyone on we get a sense we know them. And then it is a disconnect, isn't it? When when then all of sudden you click the link and you get sent to this page that has nothing to do with the individual you've just been spending an hour watching on their YouTube channel. 100 % and that's the that's the bridge we're trying to connect those two together with and you know, we also want to combine that message and their message with a closing coupon as well because the traditional shopper out there is gonna go and go to a coupon site after they click on that link and then they're gonna go to the checkout system go and try to get a coupon online and then all of a sudden that influencer loses that sale and they they're paid nothing and then that coupon site who just stands in front of a cash register gets full credit and that's garbage and I hate saying that I don't allow coupon sites and extensions into my programs for that reason but those of you that are working with those types of sites It is super important to help your influencers convert better and one of those things is giving them a closing coupon so that the end user who is shopping doesn't have to go and search for that coupon. You're giving it to the influencer who is bringing in that top of funnel traffic and is more valuable than those guys that are at the bottom of the funnel just waiting for commission. It just feels like taking more ownership over that whole customer journey as an affiliate marketer, as an influencer or creator. It's owning not just presenting the product, reviewing the product, talking about the product and showcasing, but actually what you're talking about is holding the hand of the customer all the way through until they make that purchase. Yeah, and hopefully that runs true and every brand, every store, every instance of an affiliate program is completely different. Everything is unique in this industry and so there is not one solution that's going to be the right fit for everybody. And for example, like your price point might be what you would consider high, but at over$100 and those are the higher the price point. the harder it is to close immediately with something that's direct to the consumer, right? And response-oriented marketing. So the better the copy on the page, the better chance you're going to have to convert that immediately. And that's ultimately what you want as a brand is the capability to get those end users in the door. Get them sold something to begin with and start to love your brand and come back to your store later on down the line. And I think probably as consumers, that's what we want as well, isn't it? That we want that certainty. We want to feel reassured in our decision making. And actually, we probably don't want to days upon days or weeks or however long researching other alternatives and then only just coming back to exactly what we started off with. Yeah, I mean as a consumer, if something comes to mind that I say I need this thing, I go and buy it like pretty quickly. But I do my shopping as well. I go and find best blank, whatever, and find the brands that are actually doing the best. And then I have to sift through artificial intelligence websites that are pounding out some kind of garbage content to sell and the true... Influence comes from influencers that are maybe not paid by the brand, but actually believe in the product themselves and our users. And those are the ones that I want to listen to. Those are the ones that I'm going to buy from personally. And I think there's a large majority of people out there that are feeling the same way and want to trust humans rather than robots these days. I, you know, I couldn't agree more. And I'm a big fan of AI, right? Like I, am, but, but it has a place and its place isn't providing the, the human authentic content and, and emotion. That part is certainly not what, I see. But, but with that, and you use AI yourself at the moment. 100%, all day, every day, like so much. I more so when I'm creating content, it's more of the ideation than anything else. Finding keywords and then developing content around that is, can be difficult. I can talk about a lot of things, but sometimes I just need the. push in the right direction, what are the exact topics that I need to talk about in this article for it to rank? Because I want my message to get out there and AI is helping me figure out the way to do that. Super beneficial. In terms of affiliate recruitment and methodology, AI is used in AFIstash. It's a SaaS company that I am co-founder of and it's helping find affiliates. and influencers that are in the niche spaces that people are looking for. AI is helping find and scrape on the internet the people that are ranking immediately. So you get results so much faster by using AI technology and it's part of my everyday flow. And you talk about it using it to obviously define people in the niches that you're looking for. There, we could spend all day going through niche after niche after niche. And there are some of the really big, fairly common niches. But what are some of the niches that you've come across that maybe just don't get the attention they deserve? Or are these untapped gold mines? I would say more than anything, SaaS has been growing dramatically in the last five years, and there's more agencies out there servicing software as a service products out there. As far as AI goes, there's 100 new AI softwares out there that show up every single day that people are building out and trying to get a market share of. people to use their tool. So those are the two biggest increases I've seen in as far as products go and niches and there just are not enough influencers in that space to go around for all of these brands. Like the ones that are thriving and teaching AI are not only going to be really great affiliates in the next couple of years, but they're their careers, they're setting themselves up for success. People that are adapting the best to AI right now are going to become chief artificial intelligence officers at companies. They need these things. They need automation. need people that can fix and solve problems in a much quicker fashion so that the company can work more efficiently. And they're gonna rate $200,000 plus a year annual salary. So, The people that are getting in on this right now are the ones that are going to set themselves up for success in their career if they're still interested in working for companies in the future. It's a great step, it, between going from... using AI, casually and you know, popping the odd question and query into into chat GPT and maybe playing some, you know, some games and, you know, trying to get as many dad jokes as you can out of it, to actually working that into a, an automation or a workflow that's that's useful and productive. It feels like that has a lot of similarities with with affiliate marketing in that it's very easy to sign up. very easy to sign up to become an affiliate in a lot of different programs, but actually staying the course and making it a career and making it a thriving success. Does it take a certain individual or does it take a circumstance? What do you think it is that gets people over that first hurdle of, this is a great way I can make money, but actually it's going to become sustainable? How do people get from A to B? I think it's a testament of your existing brands that you're working with and the content that you're around and how to cater and monetize that traffic is a great first step. So the exercise that I like to give to influencers that are on their way up is, hey, go and make a list of 10 brands that you personally use and love. Go make that list. Now go. look at that list and go look at the competitors for each one of those companies and see if any of them have affiliate programs. Go join those affiliate programs and make you don't need to necessarily make content around that but like let's just start getting the conversation going with these companies and if you're your followership is at a certain level you might rate some kind of sponsorship and they might pay you. to do some content around that. Or if you have existing content, this is a really easy solution to switch out the links of going direct linking into affiliate links. So learning that process and going through that process of understanding what brands are going to be a fit for you, doing this naturally is the best. And I also tell people, make that list of 10, but go down the line. What's your favorite? Let's start there. What's your most passionate about? What brand you like the most? Let's become sales active and commission active before we move on to anything else and see what works. Every time you try on a new brand, let's try something a little bit different and see if you make more money or you learn something new for every brand that you take on. But don't take on 20 brands at once. This is a recipe for you not to make any money. So focus on your first brand and make some money before moving on. that advice feels a little counterintuitive or certainly not representative of a lot of what I see, right? It feels like a lot of the approach can be an inch deep and a mile wide, right? Where someone makes a list of their top 10 products, they go, okay, well actually those brands, yeah, they're who I want to work with. they go to brand number one, brand number two, brand number three, brand number, rather than going more broadly and looking at all those competitors. Is that an aha moment for people when they realize actually there's a different way of doing it? about ah-ha, hesitancy I would say, like they don't necessarily believe that this is the best method for them because they're getting sponsorships or people are giving them money. Why should I do this work for free? Well the counter part to that is you can either make a thousand dollars quickly today or you can make five thousand dollars over the next three years with the right piece of content. And if you don't understand that concept, then I can't help you. So you have to recognize that this is a long game that you're playing. And for evergreen content makers, that piece of content is going to be there for a very long time. it's going to be more worth your time and investment for making a long-term relationship with a company rather than a quick cash grab. And that is absolutely it, right? Like it is that whole long, the long game. And, and the moment that the content goes out, it's, and maybe it's a social media aspect, right? We think of stories and they're up, they're gone, they disappear, you got 24 hours. And, and we think a lot of, certainly a lot of the time that we spend is ethereal, and it just disappears and dissipates. But, but yeah, I feel you marketing the magic pieces that these links can live on for. And speaking of links, like this is a really good use case for short links and affiliate programs will have a tendency for staying on one certain platform for a few years, but they might grow out of that platform or they might find a better deal with some other platform and they migrate their whole program in. And if you were focused on their affiliate links for that program, and putting them all over the internet, all of a sudden you've got to change 50 different links on all of your content or those sales aren't just gonna keep rolling in. So the incredible part about GeniusLink and what you guys do is you only have to change it in one spot and that is extraordinarily helpful for the affiliates that are building a lot of content out there so that they only have to change one link and be done with. Thank you. Do you know what? I feel like I have to tell the audience that this is not a paid testimony at all. But it is the use case, right, that we're trying to resolve is to make things as simple as possible to manage links effectively and, you know, localize where we can, auto-affiliate where we can. But those automations and those, the magic that happens in the background. How much of that do you think that the general public or even affiliate marketers, how aware of they are they the whole world that exists? I know we've had a lot of talk about attribution, last click attribution in particular. But there's a whole world that goes on beyond what the the customer sees. How many people do you think from the influencer space or creator space actually understand that world even exists? 23%. I don't know. I can't give a real number behind it. I would say there's a fear factor behind affiliate marketing. First off, you don't want to feel stupid that you don't know what affiliate marketing is. So you might say you do, but you might not, or somebody's told you about it and you've considered looking into it, but didn't pull the trigger and go down that route. some people are making money in other ways and wanting to focus on that. Maybe that's, you know, their full-time job and they don't have time to learn about affiliate and how this can, whatever it is, like, there are lots of teachers out there on the internet, if you look them up, that are training in affiliate marketing. There's so many resources online. Now, getting the right information is the hard part. There's a lot of trainers out there that's going to teach you garbage or stuff that was working five years ago, but not working right now. getting educated is super important. And then continuing your education with the latest courses that are up to date that are coming out from 2024 and 2025. Because those are the tactics that are working right now that can help you. And the old stuff that is out there, it could be obsolete in literally three years. Google changes every single day, it feels like, and content publishers are getting creamed out there right now, but there's going to be a huge turnaround for that in the near future. So you never know where it's going. Just keeping up to date and keeping educated and watching as many tutorials as you can about this industry is going to be super beneficial. And how's the best way for people to sense check whether they're listening to someone who knows what they're talking about or actually just talks a good game? I would say case studies and showcasing of what they have done in their history. Adam Enfroy is a good friend of mine in this industry and he has some pretty incredible showcases of his content of like, here's how I was making money. And these are the brands I was even working with. Eventually he had to shut that down because people started seeing what brands he was making money with. and they started competing against him. So his transparency, which was a great thing and brought him a big audience was kind of his downfall in some aspects. But overall, like he's doing just fine. But the guys that are showcasing their talents of how they made their money are the ones that you really wanna follow. Pat Flynn also comes to mind. Pat Flynn is one of my favorite guys out there in this industry and he's just such a nice guy and such great content and he's always out there helping people. So look for helpful. Helpful might be like the one. If you see somebody that is authentic and giving you real information and you can feel and sense their need to help others, those are the ones that you really want to. And you know, I do have to echo what you said about, you've been a guest on the podcast as well, you may know. yeah, just very helpful, which was incredibly useful, incredibly kind, and incredibly generous when people are helpful with their content and can actually just share that out. And yeah, it does seem to be a, karma where it comes back and people grow from there. We've talked a little bit about some of the ways to find someone who can give you good advice, but what are some of the bad pieces of advice that you still hear people talking about that then just maybe don't go away or keep cropping up every now and again? Something that irks me when I'm doing my outreach. So my job at Inflection is to go and reach out to influencers that have X amount of followers, X amount of audience, and give them free gifts and get them to talk about the product in exchange for that. And what I come across a lot of the times is once they get to a certain level, an agency steps in and this agency will start pitching sponsorships. and nothing else. And their goal, their revenue is based on them getting those sponsorships paid because they get a percentage of them. And when you do that, that business model makes sense for the people that have, for the brands that have budget to go and pay this and pay it blindly really. But for the ones that don't, that want to work on a performance basis, those agencies won't even listen and they'll just ghost you and There's just, it's very difficult to work with those kinds of folks sometimes. So I would say having an open mind to affiliate marketing is super important aspect of this, this industry. And if you just close yourself off to sponsorships and nothing else, your room for growth is going to be stunted. Where do you see then, obviously that's one of those key challenges that you're addressing and hopefully trying to change the minds of agencies and enlighten them, right? Where else do you see affiliate marketing moving going forward? I think I want ultimately the realm of influencer marketing and affiliate marketing to live in harmony. Everybody getting paid, even the coupon sites that are getting attribution for the entire sale. I think there is room for them to be part of the equation, but I don't want them to get the entire commission. the world of multi-touch attribution, I think is going to explode and really get more popular. I asked somebody at Impact not too long ago about what percentage of affiliate programs are on a last-click attribution right now, and he said upwards of 90%. So even though the technologies of almost all of the... affiliate tracking solutions out there is moving towards a multi-touch campaign and attribution possibility. Not a lot of companies are utilizing it. And I think in 10 years, 50 % of the companies out there will be using multi-touch and not just bucketing one, whoever gets that last click, it's gonna be bucketing all of the commissions and giving out however many clicks. to all of the channels, not just the affiliates that get the clicks, but all of your marketing channels internally. And whoever solves for this and makes it the easiest is the biggest winner out of this. And I think Impact is really ahead of the game. Everflow has built some incredible technology. And then my company, Inflection, is way ahead of the game in this and going to be a big winner in the next couple of years here. And you're absolutely right. it does. In parenting, people talk about the, you know, it takes a village to raise a child. Well, it sometimes takes a village to convert a sale. and, you know, making sure that everyone gets to eat is really, really important. So yeah, I'm definitely hopeful. But I can see the, the simplicity of last click attribution is probably one of the things that keeps it so embedded and ingrained as a preferred option. It's stunting the growth of the industry altogether because this is why influencers are not working with brands on a performance basis because they know that these coupon sites that video from about honey that came out a couple of months ago has been very eye-opening for Influencers and it's actually helping me right now in my recruitment process because I tell everybody I don't work with coupon sites. I don't work with Chrome extensions Come be an influencer for us and we're going to help you close that sale and get more money out of this. And nobody's going to be stealing your commissions away. So it's all on how you proposition it and the program that you build is going to be a reflection of what kind of influencers that you are possible to get into your program. What other what other pieces of advice would do you have for for your brands that we talked a lot about influencers, affiliate marketers, but from the brand perspective, what what should brands focus more on? I always suggest if you don't have anybody dedicated to this channel, you need to start. Like this is not something that you can set it and forget it. That's a recipe for disaster. And even hiring somebody at a junior level to try to see if it works is a recipe for disaster because they're not going to know and have the experience of how to find the right partners and identify potential in partners out there. But you need somebody with experience. And one of the best things I can ever suggest to people is hire somebody with middle of the road experience to be an in-house manager and then go hire an agency to go and recruit partners for you because that is the greatest success rate I've ever seen is combining those two powers of somebody. like an agency that has a book of incredible affiliates already to go and it has those connections and then have somebody in-house ready to take that warm hand off of a relationship and start building that relationship with that influencer in-house. So that's what I always suggest to people that have that kind of budget, but not every company does. So agencies are a great start. and a place to look for strategy and getting in the ball. That's absolutely brilliant. for someone who's maybe considering who hasn't even entered into affiliate marketing and, know, I'd like to think they've listened all the way through to this point and watched us. What advice would you have for someone who is maybe making the move from influencer to affiliate marketing or just starting out with affiliate marketing? I influencers should start by practicing. I know that sounds kind of weird, but like if you don't have brands that you're working with yet, start taking brands that you really like and start putting videos out about them and get creative with it. And the more creative you get, the bigger potential that you have to land some brands that are gonna be interested in working with somebody with creativity. Now if you go beyond what you should, like if you go a little too crazy, you might scare away people, but I wouldn't lean on that and worry about that. I would just get creative with it and brands are gonna come and see that content. You might go viral with something that might change your life. The only thing I would suggest more than anything is play around with brands and start testing what you like and your message of authenticity will come across incredible to your audience and you can make some good money out of it. love that. I absolutely absolutely love that. And it does call to mind, I can't help but think of Casey Neistat. Okay, is the, know, obviously comes to mind with putting yourself out there, presenting representing a brand before you've got anything in the bag. So after this, you have been an incredible guest. But people probably don't want to stop there. Now, I really hope everyone's enjoyed this podcast, but there's probably another podcast that people could do with listening to, they? I indeed, yeah, can find me affiliate nerd out is my podcast. You can find me on YouTube, me at DustinHowes.com if you want to email me, but I'm very easy to get a hold of. I spent a lot of time on LinkedIn. So connect with me there and we can talk. Awesome. Thank you again. You've been a great guest. Really appreciate your time. Thanks for having me, Lee. We'll see you around, buddy. See ya.